Frotting, frottage

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Uncharitably the Urban dictionary defines frotting as:

Rubbing one's crotch against unexpecting people, furniture or walls. A favourite of sex-starved Japanese businessmen on the sub-way.

I'd say sexual frottage (there's also the simple craft) is two guys face-to-face rubbing their bodies and cocks against each other.

I'd never heard of or considering frotting until the day a very sexy young man told me that I was too much to take (as it were). While I was mildly intrigued my expectations were pessimistic: how could I have an orgasm just rubbing my penis along a guy's belly? I was agreeably surprised with my success.

Honestly I prefer penetration with or without the role that you can invest in being on top.

Some gay men make frotting the erotic equivalent of religion:

It seems to drive some of them into incoherence. The folks at Heroic Homosex get a bit carried away asserting that men who frot are:

"not a top" - some are and other guys are ever so happy that they are. Not that I don't have my quibbles with guys who can't enjoy it all. But some of you can't.

"not a bottom" - afraid of it aren't you?

"not a butch" - not many gay men use that term anymore.

"not a bitch" - being femme isn't necessarily that you inhibited homos.

"not a gay" - I know "ewww!"

"not a bi" - poor old bisexuals, everybody's whipping boys .

"not a str8" - semantic failure is in the house.

They make quite a business of "total fidelity." No fundagelical Christian right wing nut has made more of sexual fidelity. I've called myself biologically monogamous but it isn't like you should deny your sexuality while you are waiting for Mr. Right. Especially since you may never meet him.

Forcefully they announce that not all gay (or bisexual) men like anal sex. This is so far from a revelation that you can't help but snicker. Plenty of men (all persuasions and on either end of the process) would happily devote their sex lives to oral sex.

And they drag in the warrior imagery. Don't know about you but I'm not a warrior. Even in the privacy of my own home I don't sit around fantasize about being a soldier, fighting battles, tolerating the fatigue, accepting authority of command.

These poor men probably have images of themselves as ancient Spartan warriors, members of a classically fascist state, running about naked and thrusting spears in their fellow man. Well, gosh, that sure makes them nobler than otherwise harmless guys who enjoy penetration.

Warrior imagery is inapt because there's not equality in war. Men become disposable units ruthlessly employed by the chain of command (Hush, Hush, George Bush, How many died in Iraqi if you'd like to state a fact?).

The frotting queers have several websites all owned by the same man. Perhaps he really believes his manly rodomontade; perhaps he's found an interesting niche racket.

I'd started this planning to talk about the various ways in which gay men find their sexual satisfaction. Then I rediscovered these sites that make male frottage a heroic cause and got sidetracked.

They are like a bunch of spinsters angered to discover that others enjoy pleasures of which they don't approve.

Comments

This reminds me of the gay British movie, Beautiful Thing, where one guy asks the other if he knows what frottage is, and the other replies, “Isn’t that cheese?”

I love to be frotted perhaps as much or more than I enjoy getting my prostate massaged; so I looked into the HH site a while back. What a laugh I got, especially to read they reckoned that frottage between two men wasn’t a sodomous act. It sure was the way I do it.

Plus, no tops or bottoms with frottage? PUH-leaze!! I only enjoy frot because I get to feel the weight of a lover on top of me and spread my legs and wrap them around his grinding loins. There’s something about it that is just so intimate for me and that is the real turn-on. I guess it couldn’t get any better unless I had a vagina? Naaahh!!

That reminds me that I need to add Beautiful Thing to my Netflix queque. The time we were going to rent it someone had it out and we never got back to it.

The born-again frotter combines so many different and irrelevant rationalizations that it is impossible to dissect his motives.

Frotting makes kissing much easier, its main appeal for me.

Reply to an email:

Men who object to santorum (as fecal matter mixed with lube is sometimes called) often give themselves enemas. If you are reluctant to buy something in a shop there’s always getting it from Amazon or other online seller of stuff.

Sadly I’m not strongly orgasmic when receiving oral sex and would rather give it but I’ve never felt it was just a bore. More a specialized form of foreplay. While the frotting fanatics are off-putting I’ve managed to achieve orgasm with it and given the ease of kissing is at least an appealing form of foreplay.

I don’t know, the warrior imagery aside, it is true that there are some of us queers that just don’t enjoy having anything shoved, and don’t really enjoy the shoving. I’m not sure I can completely agree with the more egomanical aspects (the lecturing on the perfect equality of frot versus the inequality of top/bottom) but there are some who just don’t enjoy anal.

Be Glorious

I can unashamedly say that the main con of anal for me is the idea of one partner playing a feminine and/or submissive role (the fecal material and colon stress isn’t to appealing either) and no, I wouldn’t want anyone thinking that I liked anal, is that really SO unenlightened of me?

I mean the sites not exactly an artistic triumph but its helped alot of men with their sex lives, and seriously lowered their chances of getting HIV/AIDS, plus there are plenty similarly themed sites that Bill Weinthorpe doesn’t own

for instance…

http://members.lycos.co.uk/mansense/sex.html http://groups.yahoo.com/group/blackdicksrubtogether/ http://www.cock2cockstories.com

I don’t have any arguement with anyone about whatever form of sex they enjoy. But I’m annoyed by people who think their pleasure is somehow superior of more pure.

I enjoy being on the top and on the bottom. The latter has never made me feel submissive or feminine. What you get out of your sexual experience is what you bring to it. It isn’t inherent in the position or act.

“…like a bunch of spinsters angered to discover that others enjoy pleasures of which they donít approve.” — or of which they find themselves incapable?

I’m willing to grant them the benefit of the doubt. Making one specific species of sexual pleasure a moral crusade gives me the creeps when it doesn’t make me giggle.

I have a problem with frottage I got so much used to it that I can not have an orgasm by jacking off. The only way I can have an orgasm is by rubbing my penis against someone or something

A guy told me about Frottage and I saw the sight, I am a young guy and totally agree and into that, live in LA and wonder if there are guys in LA like me

I’m really into frottage. I find it incredibly erotic and stimulating to rub my dick against another guy’s body, especially when I’m on top. Still not too sure of the definition though. I really like to rub myself on a guy’s leg - his thigh and even his shin with his foot touching my butt. Is that considered frottage too?

frottage is any body-to-body rubbing, frot is penis-to-penis frottage; to make things even more confusing you also have the “princeton rub” as opposed to “oxford style”, one is frot, the other is intercrural intercourse but there’s no general agreement on which one is which

i looked up the site because i didn’t know what frottage is.now i am fascinated to discover thats how i knew i was gay when very young,well before puberty,as i found it more than just erotic.very emotional in fact.sex for me has always been totally blatant.now i think i will try getting in touch with that emotion again.simply by discovering the meaning of the word frottage.thankyou!

I was 2 or 3 when I discovered the please of frot. There was this teenager, neighbor of my parents that would let me lay down on top of him when I would go to his house to play, and that was it! I spent my whole life trying to forget this desire to frot! I am at a stage that I would do it. I feel that life is short and I will likely regret not trying sooner what could be the atmost sexaul please. Why is life so complicated?

Have you asked quys to do it with you and they’ve refused?

Hi guys, I’m Bill Weintraub, creator and webmaster of Heroic Homosex, The Man2Man Alliance, Frot Men, Cockrub Warriors, and Frot Club.

First of all, Richard, thanks for the PR.

What’s interesting about the other posts is that despite all the spleen and obloquy you throw at me and Frot, a number of guys have the guts to say: hey, I like it!

I want to respond to a couple of those guys first:

To redpen: I coined the term Frot, and it means phallus-on-phallus sex — not anything else.

Frottage is, per the sexologists, any sort of erotic rubbing.

Frot is, per Bill Weintraub, phallus-on-phallus sex.

Why did I coin the term?

Because we needed a race-neutral word.

European-Americans favor cock2cock.

African-Americans dick2dick.

Thus Frot.

To Martin, who’s looking for other guys — we have a dating message board on the site called Frot Club — look there.

To “e,” the guy who said Frot reminded him of his boyhood:

That’s right.

Frot is sex the way you imagined it as a kid — innocent, natural, and free.

Doesn’t mean it’s immature Richard — just that it’s something which all sorts of guys do naturally.

And now Richard for some of your complaints:

First of all, and for the record, this is not a racket.

That’s an ugly thing to say, completely without foundation.

There’s no money being made on my sites.

There are no fees and no ads and nothing for sale.

Unlike, for example, your site — where there are ads and things for sale.

I have none of that.

Yes, I do accept donations, but as anyone knows who does, they don’t even come close to covering our operating expenses.

So my sites — and there’s more than one because they’ve grown logically and naturally from each other — exist solely to empower men into Frot.

And that’s what they do.

You can think of them as a social ministry — because that’s what they are.

I’d like to list them; because there are some imitators out there — and I don’t want any confusion:

HeroicHomosex dot com and HeroicHomosex dot org, home to Frot Club; Man2ManAlliance dot org; FrotMen dot org; and an MSN group called CockRubWarriors.

There are also, as redpen pointed out, other cock2cock / dick2dick sites, some of which are terrific.

Richard, all your complaints, which I’ve heard over and over again for the last four years, are addressed on the site — in spades — and I encourage those reading this post to look at the sites and decide for themselves; a good place to start is an article titled Frot: The Next Sexual Revolution, published way back in 2000.

But I’ll take up a few here:

Fear of penetration?

No.

As I say on the site, like most men into frot (“Frot Men”), I’ve been penetrated and more than once.

Because there’s enormous peer pressure to participate in anal — something, given the dangers of anal, the gay community should be ashamed of.

Nevertheless, having been penetrated, I and other Frot Men can honestly report that we don’t like it — and that’s not remotely the same as fearing it.

You don’t like the warrior imagery Richard?

Too bad.

Most guys love it.

And I have no question that it’s good and healthy for gay and bi men to have a strong masculine identification and to participate in combat sports such as a martial art — which I encourage them to do.

Fairly early in my career as a gay activist I was involved in gay self-defense work, as a consequence of which I became a founding board member, in 1983, of the NYC Lesbian and Gay Anti-Violence Project, and I know that self-defense training and other traditionally masculine activities are good for gay men.

Because gay men are men — not anything else.

That said, there are no fantasies or depictions on my sites of men killing each other — none, zero, zip.

Those fantasies are in your pansexual sodomite head Richard — not ours.

And when it comes to doing violence, as I’ll demonstrate in a moment, Frot doesn’t hold a candle, as it were, to anal.

You don’t like our rejection of labels?

Once again, you’re wrong.

We say — not gay, not bi, not straight — because that’s been our experience.

The labels are meaningless.

I’m a “gay-identified man” who’s been a “gay activist” for more than three decades.

My first lover, who I lost to AIDS, was also “gay.”

My current partner is a man who, up till a couple years ago, was completely “straight.”

So the labels are misleading at best.

And it always surprises me when gay men, who historically have been very much the victim of labels, endorse them.

What we should all be working towards is a world in which those labels don’t exist — and all people are free to be their authentic, usually bisexual, selves.

Also Richard: We’re not a cult and frot isn’t a fetish.

Treating the anus like a vagina is a fetish.

It’s an obsessive sexual interest in a non-genital body part — that’s a fetish.

Genital-genital sex is not and cannot be a fetish — and genital-genital sex is what Frot is.

I thank the man — once again redpen — who observed that Frot has saved lives.

Fact is that tens of thousands of “men who have sex with men” have come through the epidemic unscathed thanks to Frot.

Too bad, then, in the face of rising infection rates, that guys like Richard denigrate Frot and tear it down.

Every day, more than 60 American gay and bi men get infected with HIV and other STIs through anal sex.

Not through Frot.

So who’s destructive and where’s the true violence in gay male life coming from?

Guys like Richard who are pushing the analist “fuck-till-you-die” line?

Or Frot Men like ourselves — who enjoy their masculinity and love to rub cocks — neither of which harms a soul.

I want to repeat that: We’re not the problem.

We’re not out there spreading HIV and 20 other anally-vectored STIs.

Or pimping for anal fissures and leakage.

Fact is, there are a LOT of problems associated with anal penetration, some of them deadly.

There is NOTHING even remotely comparable with Frot.

Richard, predictably, brings up oral sex.

But oral is far riskier than Frot — have you seen the latest data on STIs and oral cancer? — and not mutually genital in the way Frot is.

Those who won’t recognize the risks of anal and oral are in biological denial, and biology will catch up with them.

Then Richard, sounding pretty desperate, you call me a “spinster.”

I had to laugh at that.

I’m an intensely sexual being, and I don’t think anyone looking at my sites would conclude otherwise.

And of course I’ve been in two very passionate cockrub relationships which I describe and document — with pix — on the site.

Nothing spinsterish about the pic of me and Brett titled “Two Rods,” for instance — ck it out guys — it’s in Hyacinthine Love.

Richard also complains about our emphasis on Fidelity.

Heaven forfend that gay men should actually stop defining themeselves by promiscuity and anal sex.

Truth is, he’s very foolish.

He doesn’t understand the power of a pure and unadulterated man2man bond.

And as a consequence he’ll never experience it.

Furthermore, the level of STI infection in the gay male community is that of a third-world country.

That’s why so many ASOs are embracing “partner reduction” aka Fidelity — because the community is unhealthy, and again, I’m doing the right thing in pointing that out and pointing to a sound solution.

Finally — my sites speak for what is an authentic grass-roots movement of men who have sex with men and who have broken out of the old, very tired, gay = anal mold.

If you don’t like it Richard, that’s too bad, because we’re here to stay.

I’ve been an activist for more than 30 years, and I know when something is real and true.

There are more than 2000 posts on our message boards from Frot Men who are sick and tired Richard of guys like you telling us how to live.

That’s not what Gay Lib is about.

It’s about Freedom — for us, just as much as you.

So: no one’s going to take away your anal sex.

But we don’t like it, and we’re going to continue to say so, and describe it accurately, and keep telling guys that there’s an alternative which is far hotter, far safer, more intimate, and, yes, Richard, more masculine.

That’s Frot, it’s The Next Sexual Revolution, and I hope you’ll all visit the sites and check it out.

Bill Weintraub

i did a frot when I was a kid, the othe guy would jump on me while we were getting changed to go swimming. He’s loved to go face to face ,we were to young, so we shot blanks… And could get getting hard to do it again. He didn’t like to lose a match, me on top. I didn’t think it was gay, just thought it was a fight that felt real good! i I was like 12 at the time, it all came to a stop when, I the younger of us by 3 years, shot a load all over his pulsing cock… He nevr wanted to play fight as he called agin.

“There are no fees and no ads and nothing for sale. Unlike, for example, your site ó where there are ads and things for sale. I have none of that. Yes, I do accept donations, but as anyone knows who does, they donít even come close to covering our operating expenses.”

the ads here don’t really bother me at all,and Richard has never called his readers “fags” for not sending money

“Nevertheless, having been penetrated, I and other Frot Men can honestly report that we donít like it ó and thatís not remotely the same as fearing it.”

I’m still not sure what “fearing” penetration implies, or why its so shameful

“There are more than 2000 posts on our message boards from Frot Men who are sick and tired Richard of guys like you telling us how to live.”

Yes, but you do the same thing. You both have the right to hold and express your opinions, even on the subject of other peoples sexuality, but you can’t really blame other for doing the same.

“Truth is, heís very foolish. He doesnít understand the power of a pure and unadulterated man2man bond. And as a consequence heíll never experience it.”

Richard has always been upfront about the fact that his primary attraction is towards androgynous and transgender people, I find his writing to be unfairly condescending towards gender-normative homosexuality as well, but I can respect the fact that he openly recognizes that he is something other than just a gay man, or as he puts it a “pansexual sodomite”

I think thats what he problem is when you get right down to it. Anal is basically a kink activity like fisting or golden showers (in thats its potentialy dangerous and non-genital), but most gay men who practice it, unlike Richard, don’t have the balls to own up to that fact and either stop or just admit that they have a few kinky, perhaps even unhealthy, desires.

If they did then anal would be just be another non-mainstream activity that a few (or maybe lots, I dunno) of men expiriement with out of sexual curiousity rather than “full penetrative intercourse” ala heterosexual coitus, and then their would be no problem.

I’m actually a fan of both sites.

Not anything like an apology but for what it is worth:

Terms of service forbid me to say how much the ads bring but they aren’t making me even semi-hemi-demi-wealthy. But they do offset the cost of keeping my sites up. At first I flinched at having them up. But I figure most people who visit do what we all do with advertising: ignore them.

I have bitched about conventional gay men. The majority is always a fair target. When it comes to the main agenda, we share the same goal, to love other men the way we want to.

I have to demur at the categorization of anal sex as kinky*. It is when a sense of power relationship is invested in the roles of top and bottom. But not every bottom screams “take me.” I suspect my own bias towards has much to do with the specific tactile qualities. At the beginning of my life as a sexually active man it became what I associated with the most pleasure. I’ve known people who mainly enjoy hand jobs because that was how they began. If the first young men I knew carnally had wanted to frot that could’ve become my preference.

My only complaint with Heroic Homosex is they make frotting a cult activity. Maybe some of them met men who wouldn’t have anything to do with them if they didn’t bottom. Maybe those men were creeps. Perhaps they couldn’t achieve orgasm any other way.

I’ve never demanded penetration. Some of the best sex I’ve ever had exhausted the two of us with kissing and touching that we both fell asleep without ever getting to the orgasm.

As I said the warrior imagery isn’t for me. I don’t get naked with another person to wage war. I’m one of those tender, silly romantic guys.

  • Of course I think kinky is fine as long as it is “safe, sane and consensual.”

Anybody seen any Yaoi work showing two boys frotting?

As a former amateur wrestler and referee in Texas and Iowa, frottage was common among my teammates - in private. But no one dared talk about it in public, which was fine with me. The reason was the gay stereotype, and if people thought that you were gay, then they automatically assumed you were efffeminate, liked to dress as a woman, etc. I know that definition is outdated, but I don’t feel the need to ‘educate’ the public on my choice of sexual practices, or to try to re-define what something is. The guys that I do frot with today (I don’t wrestle anymore) are about as straight-acting as most sports jocks, and I prefer them that way (they include a couple of former NFL players). To me, having some whiny little effeminate guy giggling in my ear while I hump him is a HUGE turnoff. I like my men to be masculine, muscular, and erotically passionate, like me (I’m 6’1 and 280#, bigmuscle dot com #2389).

While I’m at it, I’d like to add that in the wrestling coommunity in Texas and Iowa (and probably here in California as well), there are some slang terms used to convey interest among members. The wrestling hold called a front double-leg grapevine is also called a ‘Saturday Night Ride’, and is a good way to show your team mate or opponent what you’re looking for. As a former referee, I saw that hold used a lot, and most of the time, one or both of the wrestlers got hard immediately (spandex doesn’t hide much and there are plenty of ‘wrestling’ groups and websites with pictures which highlight that fact). Other slang terms are ‘crotch surfing’ (cock-to-cock), ‘butt surfing’ (cock to butt, with your cock either going up between his cheeks, or down between his cheeks and against his scrotum, with the latter being very similar to anal intercourse (but safer)), ‘belly surfing’ (really hot against a hairy belly), and ‘face surfing’ (usually done with some kind of head scissors). It’s all frottage, according to the definition, and I’m not sure where the term ‘surfing’ came into play, but it describes the action quite well. Maybe some beach surfers started it?

Anybody seen any Yaoi work showing two boys frotting?

well there’s this (not yaoi but still slash, uhhh…hope your into man-on-elf) http://www.squidge.org/~praxisters/pictures/rivendell.jpg (and hobbits) http://www.squidge.org/~praxisters/pictures/waterfall.jpg there’s a Lupin III handjob in the Mutual Jackers photo album does that count?

Personnaly I like the site I understand what he is saying on the site not all gay men like anal, thus prefering top, but with frottage nether man is passive, and can share a moment of release that is unequaled, the idea for frottage is exatly as it was shown to be it started in ancient greece. and it also was a way to share there masculinity even str8 men like frottage, and makes it easier for them to accept so as to identify with having a gay experience. why do you think str8 men like full contact sports, it’s a way for them to be close and FROTTAGE without the Frottagee knowing the true meaning of why this other guy is rubbing on them. str8 guys even circle jerk, because they can feel the sense of release without coming across as being gay. alot of guys can’t, or won’t drop that barrier. YES I Love FROTTAGE, it is the sexual revolution change that will turn str8 guys into regular Frotters, and to me thats great

I like the site too, but I’ve never really seen any evidence that straight men secretly like frot and cicle jerking, (I mean gay men aren’t secretly interested in cock-in-vagina, why would straight men be interested in cock-to-cock?) having a greater number of men around into man-luvin would be nice but I just don’t buy it. Its guess its just as well, I’ve heard that straight men aren’t very good lovers. Besides I like the, um, “homo-centric” nature of cock-to-cock, something just for us.

Gay frot is very usual among young boys, lets say below 15. Isnt it time to admit that ?

Getting older they get into heterosex or anal homosex. Its not so strange.

To keep the frot-sex getting older is ofcourse ok, and most of all frot sex is not the same as Bill W. Many men are tired of seing hes name everywhere when its about frot sex. It could be a reason to not like it. Sex is not equal with one man, who is acting like a strange dictator in hes special site for frot.

It wouldn’t bother me that some gay men were drawn to anal as they got older if they had the same sense of expirementation that straight people and lesbians tend to have about it, and weren’t so dismissive of other sex. If they were just adding a little something to their repetoire. But you hear some guys talk about wanting to try anal for the first time and you really do start to wonder if they think they’ve got a hymen back there, like none of the other sex they’ve had really counted. Because of course phallus-in-orafice sex is the only “real” sex, and just never you mind that the only orafice we have down there is used for shiting and doesn’t lubricate.

Hi,

Having been in an almost daily forum debate with the Frot boys for a few months now, a few conclusions have become obvious to me regarding the motivations for, and “scientific facts” the promoters of frot use as basis for their arguement.

1. The inherent prevention attributes of frot as an activity are large, and could, potetially decrease the transmission of HIV between gay men.

However as a 34 yr. old HIV negative gay man who enjoys both insertive and receptive anal sex, a nurse practitioner with board certification in critical care and flight medicine, as well as a PhD candidate in public health, i believe I can speak with a level of authority on the subject more factually and with more transparent intent than Mr. Weintraub could hope to. In that regard the frot movement is completely inept at preventing anything, except perhaps human rights advancements.

Every “study” the Frot movement quotes, is misrepresented in both presentation of, and absence of signifigant facts, as well as the global intention and set up as to what the study is attempting to demonstrate or theorize. The much widely hyped condom failure rate leading to “one in five men becoming HIV positive from protected anal sex” has, at its core, so many inaccuracies that to outline it here would no doubt take up the band width of the blog, so I will make the point with a question. Why is it then, unprotected anal sex with an HIV positive individual,for an HIV negative gay man, has a between 1 in 50 and 1 in 200 chance of sero conversion per receptive encounter. Mr. Weintraub and his followers have repeatedly failed to answer that question, despite my frequent reminders, with anything more than “they are not interested in what fancy education” has to say.

May I suggest, what “fancy education” has to say by way of epidemiologic data, is actually the most relevant prediction of infection, besides the problem of being a pesky thorn in the side of the frot movemnet. That is why i can quote both the CDC and the NIH as a direct first line source to the above numbers. However we should caution, as Mr. Weintraub has suggested, the NIH is bound to the “analist agenda”. That is something I will have to query next month at the graduate student conference for nurse practioners, supported by and heavily attended with NIH representation. I’ll ask how they enjoy “shit sex”.

2. In terms of the other arguements the frot movement makes regarding the “sex of death”, the movement is free to voice its opinions, however needs consistent reminders that the free and autonomous engagement of our sexuality in any form with another adult, in a realm supported through legislation is a reality we enjoy in this country. Therefore, stomp up and down all you will, hold your breath, but you aren’t going to have any success changing sexual behaviour through telling gay men they are less of a man by virtue of what stimulates them sexually. You seem smarter than that frankly, so this point confuses me. 3. The website makes a large refernce to how masculine men don’t “bend over and take it like a bitch”. You use the term “masculine” in a sense that implies receptive sex is passive and by virtue effeminite. Mr. Weintrab, no doubt during this debate on gay.com you have glanced at my picture, as is your strategy to use against opponents. Why then have you not, or anyone from your movement, called me an “effeminite Aids spreading whore” like you’ve called others. Does my physical presentation somehow cause your theory to be reexamined? Passive, I am proud to say, may be a term used to describe my life philosophy, However if you ever called me the names you do from behind your keyboard, that stated philosophy , I can guarentee, would be garnered an exception to kick your ass.

And while we are on the subject of masculinity, lets just look at that a bit closer. In my definition, which allows for a certain range, given that in humans, “range” of manifestation is seen as a biologic imperative, rationalizing oneself as straight, because one has sex with men and “doesn’t self identify as gay”, or as a warrior from Ancient Greece, as well as calling a guy who is effeminite “an empty weak shell of a human being”, would not be my first choice for a masculine template. Given that they are both fantasy and projection, attempting to justify an orientation. One that is clearly at odds with, and runs against every ethos that is at the core of a “traditional” definition of masculinity. interestingly, a definition that I have never heard you, despite your vast collection of work, define.

Sincerely,

Steve O’Brien, ACNP, MSN, MPH

Pop-psychology is bullshit, lets get back to hearing personal accounts of lusty frottage, those were sexy.

As a self-identified gay man who enjoys all three major forms of gay sex (frottage, oral, and anal), it dismays me that once again we see a subgroup in the community (frottage enthusiasts) using their choice of preferred sexual activity to define themselves as superior or more “advanced” than everyone else. I’ve read the Heroic Homosex website, and their denigrations of anal sex mirror those of homophobic straight men who see gay sex as “unmanly.” I am also sure that any feminist would be outraged at Mr. Weintraub’s equating of passive with feminine, and especially by his denigration of men who display such qualities. As for myself, I never feel “feminine” or passive when I am going down on a man or being penetrated by one. On the contrary, I never feel more masculine than when I am going down on a man. My oral technique is often quite aggressive, so much so that even the most dominant tops sometimes find it too intense and have to ask me to ease up (especially when I use my teeth)! As for anal sex, I have never bought into the notion that the penetrator is the “masculine” one and the penetratee is the “feminine” one. The seems to me an effort to force anal sex to fit the heterosex model of man and woman. In any event, I doubt that any woman of today would appreciate hearing their sexual role described as “passive.” Most straight couples today view intercourse as a collaboration of equals, and there is no reason why the same attitude should not be applied to gay anal sex.

As for the physical sensations involved, while I do enjoy frottage in its various forms, because of my medications I often have trouble maintaining an erection, which I find can significantly reduce the pleasure of frottage for both me and my partner. Performing oral sex or being penetrated anally are activities I can enjoy regardless of my state of erection. And while the anus may indeed not be truly errogenous, it doesn’t matter because I enjoy the sensation. With sufficient lubrication, it can be quite pleasurable, almost like an internal massage. In fact, I often find that it releases a lot of tension and leaves me quite relaxed afterward. And no man—I repeat, no man—penetrates me without first getting my permission.

As for the comparative risks, I think there can be no doubt that frottage is the “safest,” and probably the best activity for casual encounters. However, I will defer to the CDC’s data on the risks of oral & anal rather than Mr. Weintraub’s sensationalized claims.

I’ll conclude by reasserting, as many already have, that any consentual activity can be part of a healthy sex life if it is pleasurable for both partners and performed in a spirit of mutual respect. Conversly, any sex act, even frottage, can be made demeaning. Sex is made fulfilling or demeaning by the attitudes you bring to it, not by the nature of any individual act itself. So to people on all sides of the debate, I would say “live and let live.” Whatever you enjoy, do it. Whatever you don’t enjoy, don’t do it. And don’t try to make others feel inferior if they enjoy different things than you do. Otherwise, you’re no better than those you may feel are looking down on you.

First off one of the most important pages on the whole site, if not the most important, is titled “What Sex Is” I doubt you’d agree with it, thats not the point, but I think you should read it before you make such broad accuasations.

And before this site came out I doubt anyone would count frottage as the third form of gay sex equal to anal or oral (thank you, by the way). So, obnoxious or not, its working.

Anuses are dirty, gay men have as much right to aknowlage that fact as anyone, and it its perfectly understandable to react intensely negatively to being sterotyped as loving anal penetration just because of your sexual orientation. If the sterotype was that all gay men are into cutting or watersports there would be a website about how great it is to be gay and not into cutting or watersports. Heroic Homosex exists because there was a need for it, its not pretty but this is how some men feel, and have every right to feel.

And once again the moderate point of view is shouted down. This is starting to resemble one of those right-wing radio talk shows.

I’ll say again: you like frottage? fine. you don’t like anal? fine. you like both or neither? fine. do what you like. don’t do what you don’t like. just don’t pretend your sexual tastes are any better, “cleaner,” or more natural than anyone else’s. Don’t we get enough of that shit from straight conservatives? And don’t complain about stereotypes in one breath, then turn around and stereotype others with the next. Anyway, why should you care if someone who doesn’t know you makes wrong assumptions about your sex life? It’s your sex life, not theirs.

Oh, and btw, I read the “What Sex is” page. I found it to be a combination of useful information about sexual pleasure and the history of frot (none of which I didn’t already know) and self-righteous, divisive ranting. The author seems to feel that since he’s been discriminated against by some gay men because he doesn’t like anal, then he has a right to vilify all men who do enjoy it. And again, his anti-anal stereotypes don’t sound much different from those of religious conservatives. I used to be one, and I heard all of those same arguments in church. Well I’m sorry, but prejudice is prejudice, no matter what kind of spin you try to put on it. I don’t enjoy BDSM (it’s too far out for my taste), but I don’t go around calling BDSM enthusiasts “sick” or “dirty” or “fucked up”. The tone of HH website isn’t educational, it’s hateful.

I’m sorry that some in the gay community have tried to marginalize frottage. As a bear, I know what it’s like to be outside the gay mainstream. But I’m also sorry to see that some in the frot community are pushing stereotypes of their own. (And I’m sorry to disappoint you, but I know plenty of guys who enjoy anal that don’t fit any of those stereotypes). How can we credibly make the case for sexual equality if we’re doing the same thing to each other that the right-wingers are doing to us? And how much more progress could we have made in the 35+ years since Stonewall without all this pointless bickering and infighting? I hear gay activists saying all the time that what people do in the privacy of their bedrooms is nobody else’s business. How can we demand sexual tolerance from the straight world if we refuse to practice it toward each other?

“Frottage” a ete anglicanise et bien plus utilise chez les anglophones qui ont les leurs: Princeton rub, Frontage, Rubbing, Body surfing… “Frottage” n’est plus le premilinaire mais l’acte sexuel soi-meme entre partenaires consentants jusqu’a ejaculation. Tristement, il y a beaucoup de frotteurs gais/bis qui decouvrent tres tard qu’il y a une communaute de frotteurs comme eux. Mieux tard que jamais. Pour ceux qui adoptent le Frottage, comme il n’y a pas de baise, il y a des avantages suivants: 1. Pas sale 2. Pas douloureux 3. Moins de risque de HIV 4. Egalite entre partenaire 5. Double plaisir en donnant et recevant en meme temps. C’est l’amour sensuel, en lenteur, ou l’on savoure chaque moment ensemble, en se massant l’un l’autre, se caressant… dans la baignoire, piscine, mer, douche, lit, tatamis… le baiser humide entre partenaires qui se connaissent bien… Le frottage s’associe a la lutte erotique, souvent avec huile et nus, virile, a pied d’egalite entre 2 combattants. Le judo, la lutte offrent des occasions pour le frottage, la masturbation reciproque, le grapevine, l’etreinte d’ ours… Il y a l’admiration reciproque pour les pecs muscles des partenaires et les tetons tres sensibles. J’ai decouvert que la plupart des gais ne sodomisent pas! Ironiquement, quand on parle de “Frottage”, la plupart des gens pense au fromage, a la peinture… Merci de m’envoyer vos photos et histoires erotiques relatant aux Luttes erotiques entre culturistes, admiration mutuelle des pecs, beaucoup de frottage, de masturbation mutuelle, combats de bites, de baisers, de tiraillements de tetons… Les bonnes habitudes s’apprennent pour votre sante et celle des autres. Vive la vie! Pecstocky. Ecrivez-moi en francais (Or in English): Mon email: Pecstocky@yahoo.com.

I love cock-on-butt frot - you on your stomach, ass in the air, me on top, rubbing my cock between two bubble-like cheeks and my arms and legs wrapped around you for a long, slow rub. Twice in my life I have cum five times in a 24 hour period while frotting this way. It just drives me wild with desire and affection for the guy under me. Anyone interested?

Hey Guys! Just wanted to say hello to the new community :). Thanks for letting me in! :D

I started rubbing on other boys at 11. we both had dry orgasms similar to when we’d rub against our beds or pillows. It was absolutely awesome, we kept rubbing cock to cock after shooting cum and it would mix between us. I LOVE to rub on smooth skin till orgasm, rubbing back and forth slowly, feeling his boner rubbing against me too, totally hot.

Your feelings?

Please share your feelings about Frotting, frottage.
Thanks,
Richard

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