What's the difference between homosexuality and a ham sandwich?

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For some deny that a state is well constituted, which neglects the polity of Moses, and is governed by the common laws of nations. The dangerous and seditious nature of this opinion I leave to the examination of others; it will be sufficient for me to have evinced it to be false and foolish.

-- John Calvin

Easy to dismiss Calvin as a long dead fanatic. (Though he is often maligned, did you know that he approved of dancing? Many of today's American Christian fundamentalists are far more theocratic than John Calvin.

First a word of reason:

Leviticus not only condemns a man "who lies with a male as with a woman" and the eating of pork. It also prohibits seafood without fins. And tattoos.

So what makes one law still in force and another seemingly obsolete? Particularly when Jesus himself said "not one jot or one tittle" of the law would change?

"One wonders why several other Torah rules have been generally ignored while this one [about homosexuality] is elevated to the status of 'the word of God,' " wrote John Shelby Spong, the retired Episcopal bishop and liberal gadfly, in a recent online column.

"The Torah prescribes a kosher diet, which fundamentalists today ignore," Spong said. "The Torah says that a person cannot make a garment of two different kinds of fabric. It says that those who worship a false god should be executed."

Jeffrey Weiss, If other biblical bans are ignored, why are gay unions taboo?

Some extreme Christians' goal is to bring back Mosaic Law. It isn't too much to call them men who would like to be the American Taliban.

Theonomy. Dominion Theology. Christian Reconstructionism. All these terms may be unfamiliar to most people, but they shouldn't be. You should be aware of them and understand what lies behind them.

Collectively, the refer to the very extreme Religious Right - far beyond what is normally thought of the Religious Right. The groups which can be described as "Christian Reconstructionist" openly call for the elimination of not only the First Amendment but most of our Constitution and the "reconstruction" of our society along Old Testament lines.

Name unknown, What is Theonomy?

In the words of one of their own:

Capital crimes against the family include rebellion to parents, homosexuality and adultery. Sound harsh? Then what you are saying, in effect, is that God is harsh and that treason against the family is "not as bad" as treason against the state.

Jay Rogers, What is Theonomy?

Comments

It has always amazed me how fanatical Christians so easily ignore parts of the Bible they disagree with. Pentacostals, Assembly of God(ists?), and other mumblers and speakers of unintelligible drivel never seem to remember what Paul said in his First Letter to the Corinthians about speaking in tongues when no one can understand. And, now, we have another bunch who ignore Paul in his Letter to the Galatians and a Christian’s relationship to the Law. Unfortunately, Christianity has a checkered history when it comes to people in authority interpreting the Bible for their own skewed sense of political correctness. Even if you challenge them, they simply say that part is meant to be taken figuratively, and not as a specific instruction. Pick and choose and you’ll always be right.

“Pick and choose and you’ll always be right.”

Yeah, but I’m the one who will really be right.

More seriously, yep, that sums up how it works. When I moved to North Carolina there was a guy who had a radio show where he spoken in tongues twice a week. It was a joy. Much cheerier than the boy on the show that followed. He would always thank his parents for beating him.

I wonder how many fundamentalists have actually read the old testament. In my teens I was a lukewarm Episcopalian, believing that “what we believe” was what the good pastor spouted from the pulpit—all of which usually sounded reasonable. Then, in my early twenties, I actually started reading the Bible. Jesus Christ! That’s how I lost my faith—thank God.

After he became saved my Daddy was a steady Bible reader. He read it from cover to cover repeatedly. But he saw the words through the lens the pastor and the radio ministers that he liked provided.

I live with a lukewarm Episcopalian. He’s off to play for some sort of ordination service.

I have always wondered why nobody points out the many prohibitions in Leviticus that fundementalists routinely ignore. That same book calls for many specific animal sacrifices. Why aren’t Baptist, Pentecostal, and Assembly of God churches knee deep in blood, guts and feathers?

Don’t know how much fundamentalism you grew up with. There’s the whole business about how Jesus ‘fulfilled’ Mosaic Law. That is what most Christians use to create a Chinese menu of one from column A and one from column B until they’ve managed to fit it all into their preconceptions.

Excuse me, but please, how in the world can you back up those exact quotes from the bible? Please provide a webpage scource (online bible) that clearly STATES these quotations. (I am not saying that these were not stated, but the jot and tittle one is new to me…) And clearly, we’re talking thousands of years ago, in the New testament, there were much less, if not any sacrifices made. Haha, American Taliban. That’s funny. Sorry to say that it is not the ‘extreme christian’s’ goal to bring back any sort of law. It clashes with their beleifs. The intention is not to hurt anyone, or HATE anyone, but gay marriages are a huge issue and I think that on several points it defies a christian’s beleif system. I am no expert. (and clearly you aren’t either) But I hate to see that people beleive it’s only the CHRISIANS who are against this. It appears that there is much more behind your scorn than just your gay rights point of veiw.

To Clare regarding the post of March 11th.

You ask for specifics “how in the world can you back up those exact quotes from the bible?”

Which is fine and you should. But then you state:

“but gay marriages are a huge issue and I think that on several points it defies a christianís beleif system”

May I ask you in return to state specifically What you mean? Defies Christian Belief? In what way. What is the proof?

Don’t ask for what you are not willing to give. I listed the Shell fish example following just to prove a point. Most of what is mentioned in the posts above are easily confirmed. The Jott and Tittle comment is colorful and may not be exact, but if I remeber right, Jesus said something like it but not the exact wording.

For the quote below I found at the following site:

http://www.bibleontheweb.com/Bible.asp

If you want a really good source of controversy surrounding the bible try

steve@skepticsannotatedbible.com

But anyway you asked for quotes so here is one found in leviticus:

“Everything in the waters that has fins and scales, whether in the seas or in the rivers, you may eat. 10 But anything in the seas or the rivers that has not fins and scales, of the swarming creatures in the waters and of the living creatures that are in the waters, is an abomination to you. 11 They shall remain an abomination to you; of their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall have in abomination. 12 Everything in the waters that has not fins and scales is an abomination to you.” Shellfish do not have fins or scales. If you eat it it is an abomination and God will punish you. Ever had Lobster? YOu are damned.

I could go on. But it is irrelevant to the discussion. Look again at the main thread of the discussion. The main thread is that Christians ignore parts of the Bible that conflicts with thier world view and hold up as word of GOD that which makes them feel good.

Have someone, anyone in the christian community show everyone that is for gay marraiges how Christians are consistant. It goes to the heart of the argument. If Everything in the bible is true and the Bible is against homosexuality then you have proved your case and I will vote with people outlawing Gay Marriages.

However, I believe and state as a proposition that Christians do not follow the teachings in the Bible, they pick and choose.

Evidence: The Ten Commandments. It clearly states: THOU SHALL NOT KILL. Notice the period at the end of the sentence. It does not have equivocal statements following it stating something like “except in cases of bodily danger or if you find weapons of mass destruction. Also the fact that it is a commandment does not allow for interpretation. It is not one of the ten suggestions. It is a Commandment! Yet many Christians are sure that God did not know what he was saying and really meant….

In other words for the State to put someone to death for rape or murder, it takes either ignoring a COMMANDMENT or interpreting what is meant. If the Bible is the Word of God and is inerrant, then the State, in the US that means you and me, is guilty of Killing and will go to hell.

For the state to kill in contravention of the commandment someone had to interpret the meaning of the Commandment. If this clearly stated passage is open for intrepretation then all parts of the bible are open for intrepretation. Including the irrational hatred of gays. The real reason Christians are opposed to Gays is a reason as old as man. People don’t like those that are different. This has lead to horriffic injustices like black people being hanged in the south for the color of their skin. Christians have more in common with the Klu Klux Klan than with Jesus when they persecute Gays. Jesus loved the bigots, he loved the people that persecuted him. It was through the Crucifixion that he showed us a better way.

So, show me chapter and verse that proves your contentions.

Your message also states that there were no sacrifices in the New Testament. SO where are the rules about what one should believe when there are differences between the two books. Again it takes interpretation.

So I interpret the new testament to say that the last great lesson of Jesus Christ was to show us that bigotry, hated and intolerance were not his way. I believe people that are against gay marriage have more in common with and use the same language that the Pharasies did so many years ago. I reject Christian thought that leads to hate just as you feel there is no need to sacrifice animals to God any more.

Bigotry, hatred and intolorance is what the Anti Gay Marraige laws promote. I don’t understand the love of a man for a man or a woman for a woman. I do understand love and I do understand hatred, persecution and bigotry. The poor boy dragged to death behind a truck because he was gay is an example of hatred, bigotry and intolerance. I think even Christians can aggree on this point. The road that led to this and other deaths are laws that go against the United States of America’s Constitution and other great doucuments of our founding state. Any law that seeks to make a group a second class citizen and sets people apart are causes of the Boy’s death (I am sorry I don’t remember his name.)

The only way through this is to deeply believe in the princples that made this great country and the example of Jesus Christ. You have to give up old ways and truly believe that “All men are created equal.” You have to love and be willing to give up ages of bigotry, hatred and intolerance. You have to love those that are different than you. You have live the ideals of Christian love. I don’t understand why love and tolerance is so damn hard. Do unto others as you would do unto you. Is this not a christian value? What harm has any gay person done to the ideals of marriage? Specifics please. I am tired of the old tired God is against story. Prove it.

On the other hand. 50% divorce. Britiny Spears, Polgamy, on and on. Hetero’s should remove the beam in their own eye before looking for the mote in another’s.

Build don’t destroy. Government should not focus on the Gay issue if they want to strengthen marriage. They should put there time, effort and money to building the infrastructure that makes the family work. Fund the no child left behind act. Find ways to educate every child, give them a chance at life by making sure health care is availble for every child. Create programs that help people get ready for marriage. Build something, do something constructive.

Passing laws like the anti gay marriage is the old politics of divide and conquer. Passing laws against gays feeds no starving child. It does nothing but tear at the fabric of our country.

It is wrong to deny a person the rights to visit someone they love in the hospital. It is wrong to abrogate the wishes of a dying person to give his property to whom he pleases. It is wrong to hate. It is wrong to drag people behind a truck. It is wrong to hate someone who is different, but causes you no harm. It is wrong to treat people as second class citizens. It is also immoral. I will not be judged by God and try to defend these immoral acts.

I choose love, I choose the teachings of Christ, Budda and other great spiritual leaders. I choose the consitution and the declartion of independence. I belive the principles in these documents and I am appalled at those that merely pay them lipservice.

These are the reasons why I have to stand up for Marriage for two indivuduals who truly love each other regardless of the circumstances.

Even if god did exist it would necessary to abolish him.

I’ve read and understood all of the comments so far. I feel the obvious tension between Christianity, the Bible and the right to be gay without question and to marry without prohibition. At the same time I feel, throughout the threads of these comments a real need to defend what is obviously believed to be perfectly o.k. - where does that come from? If one man’s dog kills another man’s cat - are any of the animals less dead by a clearly presented argument? I think not. I also believe that although it is not on the front page of the political debates of late, people may have other reasons to be against gay marraige besides Biblical or Christian traditions or even the fear of change but they have no political agendas and no points to prove. I personally would not make a public defense of something that needs no defending. Let the justice system do its job - it’s all we have.

Hi. I like it when people use Leviticus as a means to say the bible is wrong. Especially when atheists do it, because they usually shout out against religions that they’ve never examined. If you actually knew anything about the Bible you’d know that Leviticus is a set of rules delivered to the Hebew people circa 450 BC. But we do not obey all the rules in Leviticus today, because we trust Jesus (see Galatians 3:23-25).

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Please share your feelings about What's the difference between homosexuality and a ham sandwich?.
Thanks,
Richard

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